The art for the Jaredite barges seems primarily based upon traditional (non-Mormon) art for Noah’s ark. Why tie your mind in knots merely to accommodate literalism? In Mosiah 8, Limhi inquired of Ammon1 who could translate the 24 Jaredite plates. Powered by. [10] The story of Noah and the flood would have been relatively recent history for the Jaredites, who had departed from the, “great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people” ( Ether 1:33 ). It could be that the Jaredits and Nephites, like the ancient Israelites, used myth and story to convey truth. Randall Spackman notes that Hugh Nibley wrote at some length about the features of the Jaredite barges, comparing them to the description of Noah's ark as found in the Sumerian version of the Deluge story from Nippur in lower Mesopotamia, dated to before 3000 B.C. Is an ancient transoceanic journey to the America's impossible? Father Lehi. receive vaccination against the COVID-19 pandemic in particular, you Great article, Jeff. Perhaps coincidentally, the North Pacific current takes about the same time to cross from Japan to Mexico (Sorenson, p. 111). Apparently that last civil war did not extend northward from Ripliancum (Papaloapan Basin). Over 5 million people had been killed by the time the three battles on the hill Comnor had ended. Why Did Moroni Quote Malachi about Elijah’s Coming? So why insist on reading a supposedly ancient text as if it were an instance of this modern, new-fangled, liberal thing called "history"? Looking into this more deeply, there are some surprising ancient connections between the Jaredite barges and Noah's ark suggesting that the description is rooted in antiquity, whatever may be lacking in helpful scientific details. 2021 Awards and Funding from the BYU Charles Redd Center for Western Studies. Left: An artist's idea of the Jaredite barges; Right: An early submarine with a peaked (pointed) nose or front. However the shape of their ships where quite different. Sometimes I forget how far down the rabbithole we are. This was before widespread railways in the United States so … It would mean that Joseph wrote the BoM himself rather than translating it from ancient source, yet nonetheless somehow managed to provide an accurate history of New World events. There is plenty of evidence that there really was a country called Great Britain, and it really did fight a war in the 18th century with a real nation called France that involved real Indian tribes called the Hurons and the Delawares. The Book of Mormon Jared has the same name as the biblical patriarch Jared (Hebrew: יֶרֶד ‎ Yéreḏ, in pausa יָרֶד ‎ Yā́reḏ, "to descend"), in the Book of Genesis, who was the sixth in the ten pre-flood generations between Adam and Noah; he was the son of Mahalaleel and the father of Enoch, and lived 962 years (Genesis 5:18). But despite successful testing, the prototype never went into full production, and mysteriously ended up at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Now that we understand what moved the Jaredite barges, we need to look for a sea route where such wave and wind action could move such barges on drift voyages across the sea from the Old World to the Western Hemisphere. Small - (320x237px, 134.1KB) Medium - (800x591px, … Think about all those people and animals generating all that body heat. Many Christians mock The Book of Mormon for this account because of the description of the barges themselves, the strange method of obtaining … If so, thank you for at least acknowledging that in a subtle way. in eight barges in approximately 1676 BC. The ends of the barge are peaked, as described in Ether 2:17, and the holes in the top and bottom are present. Those who have strapped on air tanks and visited the thing say the craftsmanship used to build it is remarkable--four-inch-thick oak boards bent and fitted together and caulked watertight, like nothing built today.A CNN article described the boat-like object as “an oak construction the size of a bus and shaped like a zeppelin.”[1], Excited by the discovery, many LDS readers were quick to suspend logic and identify the object as a "Jaredite barge" and myth-creating messages were circulated wildly around the Internet claiming that proof of the Book of Mormon had been discovered, and in our own backyard!During the fervor following the discovery, some of the more skeptical readers began to ask how a wooden barge would have survived at the bottom of a lake for more than 3,000 years. Monday, January 27, 2014. vaccination. Seems to me it should be the reverse. Location in the Scriptures: Ether 6. To describe the addition of lighting and ventilation as afterthoughts -- that seems something much more likely to be done by an amateurish writer with no experience of shipbuilding. The BoM could be:(1) Ancient and Fictional (as many of us believe the Bible to be, and as perhaps some theologically liberal Mormons believe the BoM to be)(2) Ancient and Not Fictional (as Jeff believes the BoM and the Bible to be)(3) Not Ancient and Fictional (as the "antis" believe the BoM to be)(4) Not Ancient and Not FictionalNo one I know of believes in (4), but I guess it's conceivable. According to the Book of Mormon, they fled across the ocean on unique barges and established an ancient civilization in America. Did the Prophet Deny That God Was Once a Man? And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.This makes it seem as if the default mode is to have the barge closed up, and only open the port when things get excessively stuffy. The fundamentalist-literalist idea that myth and other forms of fiction is somehow not up to these tasks is a very strange one.Similarly, proof of the BoM's antiquity would not in itself allow us to choose between (1) and (2) above. Join members of the Church History Department as they set the record straight on Mormon Myths. Copyright Jeff Lindsay. This epic adventure is his favorite story found in the Book of … I just wanted to say that your insights regarding LDS apologetics have been very helpful to me and my family.About the Brother of Jared's question regarding steering in 3:19, it looks like the Lord indirectly answers that by saying in verse 24 that the winds are controlled by Him. It's myth, not history.And really, what's so hard about seeing one's scripture as mythic? Lucy Mack Smith Episode 34. And ready for peer review, no less! Animal numbers may have been small, too. [Page 93] Thus the Jaredite record describes three different types of sacred stones which had divine functions: the sixteen stones that the brother of Jared asked the Lord to touch with his finger to give light to the Jaredite barges, 22 the two stones that the Lord gave to the brother of Jared on the mount (the “interpreters” or “directors”), 23 and the seer stone of … Jeff Lindsay is an LDS guy in Appleton, Wisconsin, formerly living in Shanghai. There is a comparable situation with the Phoenicia, the recreated Phoenician ship based on wrecks discovered in the late 20th century. The story of the Jaredites leaving the Tower of Babel and sailing to a new land was created for my son. Only when it shall be that the water come in upon thee shall ye stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.Too bad Joseph didn't have someone like me around for editorial advice. Because they were unable to have windows, the Lord provided sixteen white stones that … Some of these ancient sources, for example, claim that the shape of the deluge boat resembled a crescent moon when viewed from the profile. Jaredite Barges and Noah's Ark Revisited Thanks to Recent Findings Below is an interesting article about a 4000 year old Mesopotamian (modern day Iraq) tablet … Seriously, Noah's Ark was real? Their route is unknown. Just think of James Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohicans. Like the Jaredite barges, it would have been peaked on both ends. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye … The Hebrew word zohar translated as the window of the ark has a meaning of light and, according to some old Jewish sources, might refer to a glowing stone used as a light source. So a little cross-circulation was often needed--but they would encounter a lot of waves along the way and had to be judicious in opening the ports. Then, in 6:8 it says, "And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind." With you carefully worded statement, I'm assuming you do recognize that we do have interesting evidence supporting specific Old World sites mentioned in the Book of Mormon such as Bountiful in Oman, the River Laman and Valley Lemuel, and the burial place Nahom. Needless to say, the fine steel "runcible spoon" should be "runcible sword" and belonged to Laban, as one can see from exploring the Hebrew roots of runcible with some subtle consonant shifts. His solution was to … Can you explain? The Jaredite origin in the Old World probably dates to the third Millennium B.C., which due to the scarcity of historical material presents obstacles to the use of comparative literature or archaeology. I don't think that is impossible. Most every writer needs a good editor, inexperienced writers especially.Nice try, Jeff, but as any number of critics have thoroughly demonstrated, the whole barge story is implausible on its face. Sites typically have Spanish names, and we rarely know how the name was known to the ancient inhabitants. I think the ports remained open and fresh air flowed freely through the barges when the weather permitted. I don't quite know what to think about Jeff's owl and pussycat comments. Parallels with the ancient Near East can only be described in general forms, and no artifacts or writings identifiable as Jaredite have ever been found outside the Book of Mormon. Both Noah’s ark and the Jaredite barges were revolutionary in that they had sealed decks. Description. The title refers to Ether, a Jaredite prophet who lived at the end of … Nibley's analysis, however, relied in part on a questionable reading of a phrase in the Jaredite record … Perhaps it is a design similar to this that would have been most practical for the Jaredites. The death voyage in the first set of eight barges may never be discussed in Mormon circles, because that would mean the story ended there at Ether 2:7, and everything else was made up, if not the whole sadistic story! Many questions unanswered, but the basic concept is not impossible. Actually, Jeff, I left the Old World out of my "carefully worded statement" because the BoM refers to Old World places that are actually real but were well known to Smith from the Bible -- Jerusalem, Judah, the Red Sea -- not because I'm impressed with NHM.But you're right to say that identifiable Nephite sites might be somewhere out there in the Americas, waiting to be found someday.Somewhere....Someday....Tomorrow! My wife encouraged me to just plod ahead and stick with the instructions. Or am I too hopeful?As for specific New World locations, an importance difference relative to the Bible is that in the New World we don't have recorded Mesoamerican place names for well-known places that have persisted for millennia. They lived almost exclusively in North America for exactly thirty-two generations, after which time they annihilated themselves, all but two men, in a civil war, in about 600 B.C. The Know. The Jaredites are one of four peoples that the Latter-day Saints believe settled in ancient America. It does not say to then close them right away. There's only fraud/delusion = fiction, or truth = historicity. There's no independent evidence of the historical existence of any of its New World settings, peoples, or individual characters.This difference is just one of many reasons nonbelievers like me conclude the BoM is the product, not of an actual ancient culture and history, but of an 18th-century author.Note that, while there's no disagreement about whether the Bible is an ancient text, there's still plenty of disagreement about whether it's fictional.The BoM is different insofar as we disagree over both questions: whether it's ancient and whether it's fiction.Non-Mormons, of course, say that the BoM is not ancient and is fictional.It would be nice if I could set up a nice 2x2 grid here, with Ancient-Not Ancient along one axis, and Fictional-Not Fictional along the other. “Now after Mosiah had finished translating these records, behold, it gave an account of the people who were destroyed” Mosiah 28:17. (The New York Times, Nov 20, 1883) Giants landed in Peru. But certainly bringing animals or humans along involves waste disposal and odor issues. QED. The problems with the Jaredite barges. Okay, not explain how the beautiful pea green boat used by the owl and the pussycat could have been constructed. More than one critic has found amusement in ridiculing the Jaredite barges-or “submarines,” as some critics chide. I don't think Noah's flood was global, but could the records and legends be based on a real Noah and a real ark that survived some kind of flood?Five hundred years from now, brief accounts of the pioneers crossing the plains in handcarts might seem just as implausible and mythical as the Jaredites journey, especially once we run it through a couple of foreign languages for translation. Exactly When Do Saved Christians Lose Their Souls? "http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/phoenician-sailingThe Phoenicia was built and sailed around Africa. Applications are due March 15, 2021.The Charles Redd Center for Western He didn’t have a clue about geography, distances, environment all of which the ‘Creator … Scripture Stories Coloring Book: Book of Mormon scriptures Book of Mormon. Studies is pleased to announce multiple awards for 2021 that are available for the Covid 19 virus today. According to the Lord’s instructions, the barges were to be water-tight, peaked at the ends, with holes at the top and bottom creating some sort of reserve air supply (Ether 2:17-20). With the barge stopped up tight like unto a dish and the Jaredites enclosed with entire "flocks and herds," how long would it take before they would "suffer for air" -- 10 minutes? The Lord caused the wind to blow the Jaredites’ barges to the promised land. And somebody muck the stables already!This would have at least made a little bit of sense:And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and thou shalt leave the upper hole unstopped, lest ye suffer for air. I know Orbiting doesn't believe any of this, but I was pointing out the problem with his comment in that regard. MYTH: Jaredite Barge found in Lake Michigan, On January 25, 1999, some members of the Mormon community became prematurely excited when a large, wooden, boat-like object was discovered at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Dr. Hugh Nibley has shown that several of these non-biblical details and oddities are also found in the Jaredite account. Somewhere between these two designs, no doubt, the Jaredite barges found their way across the ocean (Great Deep) Thus, these barges were far from what most writers envision and try to describe, with a deck and some time of entrance onto that deck. We don't have easily identifiable Jerusalems to anchor the geography. I'm thinking of Ether 2:20:And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. This comparison with the vessel constructed by Noah enables us to draw several parallels between the two vessels, each of which had been constructed according to the Lord's instructions. Since they were light and floated like a fowl on the water (Ether 2:16), a portion of the bottom section could have been above the water line. Great article, Jeff. The Book of Mormon describes the Jaredites as the descendants of Jared and his brother, who lived at the time of the Tower of Babel. … It seemed like  the bracket was defective. Tomorrow! Ancient peoples were perfectly comfortable using myth and story to explain their reality, express their values, and convey their truths. That would show the four logical possibilities more clearly and perhaps help us better understand each other in these discussions. for scho... ca. Sources:Ether 6. It would certainly give a boost to the Church! the Doctrine and Covenants. The question of ancient long-distance sea travel has been much debated, but extensive indications have been … Even if the Book of Mormon or any other ancient story from the Americas is true, figuring out where to place it is a challenge. plainly won’t f... We’re four weeks into the year, and we’ve finally reached the beginning of How could adequate ventilation be provided from the one tiny window that appears to be part of the design? Jaredite; Jaredite Barges; Transoceanic Voyage: Abstract: Captured on their journey to the promise land, these barges weather the storms of life. I rely on LinkedIn.com. Wow! Ether consists of fifteen chapters. Before we start, let's squash the claim that the Jaredite story was a myth in an otherwise historical Book of Mormon. down out of heaven." And interested in discussing my favorite Mormon topic: JAREDITE BARGES. Perhaps the Jaredite barges had structurally distinct top and bottoms. Or Jaredite barges found in Lake Michigan. Sources:November 16–22: Ether 6–11, Come, Follow Me—For Individuals and Families: Book of Mormon 2020, Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual, Lesson 147 - Ether 6, Ether 6. scriptures Book of Mormon. . If so, the port in the bottom could have assisted in ventilation while also facilitating waste removal (and maybe fishing?). Resources were dwindling and the … [3]Built as a prototype in 1942 by Ukrainian immigrant Mike Tym, it was designed "to reduce losses of shipping from torpedoing, bombing and shelling,"[4] The tank was to be towed by boats. Skeleton of a man of gigantic size. High prow and stern boats with horse heads appear on the embossed bronze band of a gate at Balawat featured in the exhibition. download Presumably a small number of animals were involved. I agree with you that I would prefer the port to be open whenever possible, and maybe they were. Pres Nelson, his wife and members of the 12 over 70 years were vaccinated Consistent with its times, the peaked ends of Jaredite barges (Ether 2:17) suggested that they retained the shape of a Sumerian river barge. Found in West Virginia USA. There's plenty of evidence for the existence of many of its settings, peoples, and at least some of its individual characters.The Book of Mormon is different. Jaredite Barges. Moses 7:62. Fernando Alva Ixtlilxochitl relates that the ancestral Indians (who I believe were the Jaredites) "came to these parts [Mexico], having first crossed large lands and seas, living in caves and undergoing great hardships, until they came to this land, which they found good and fertile for their habitation. In such circumstances, one would keep the hole unstopped whenever possible rather than waiting until one "suffered for air." The history of the Jaredites is described in the Book of Ether, and in other records of the Jaredite I was sure the simple instructions were wrong as I assembled the frame for the Casio electric piano I purchased for my wife for Mother's Day. 3300 BC The Lord prophesied to Enoch that "righteousness will I send 48:37. There's more disingenuousness on the critical side than on the apologetic side. This prophecy was repeated ca. 52:47. The next project will be to demonstrate how the Phoenicians could have sailed to America. I'm back! To learn how the barges … Reading these verses, it seems apparent that the Lord most likely answered the steering question and that our record is just a little vague. But if it did happen, it would likely have been described quite differently. The Chicago Tribune published the following description:If one set out with the preposterous goal of making an oak zeppelin 31 feet long, 10 feet in diameter, pointed at its ends, complete with an 18-inch hatch to crawl inside, this is pretty much what they'd get. The real point is that the discontinuity between modern geography and ancient place names in the Americas is a real issue. But this is where things get interesting. It's full of old and bad scholarship, as well as misinformation, which is ironic in view of the title of his webpage. Previous Next Related Content. create something more than wishful thinking pointing to Mesoamerica as a serious candidate for Book of Mormon lands in the New World. Dr. Hugh Nibley shares some of the oddities with us. The record then goes on to relate how Jared and The Brother of Jared along with their family and friends left the tower of Babel and were ultimately led to the seashore where they constructed barges to come to The Land of Promise. Yooperlites (glowing rocks) discovered around Lake Superior ... Imgur. I mean, do you know how much methane is produced by cows? Some resources to consider: --Hugh Nibley: Light in Noah's Ark & the Jaredite Vessels (collection of passages from his writings)--Strange Ships and Shining Stones (A Not So Fantastic Story) - Dr. Hugh Nibley--Michael Ash's article--The Windows of Noah's Ark. As in the Bible, there may be multiple accounts and sources patched together, multiple traditions brought together or providing competing details, but why does that mean there wasn't an actual event that was behind the myths? Until these wrecks were found, the only evidence of Phoenician ships was from depictions in art:"Contemporary representations of Phoenicians in Assyrian art depict a variety of Phoenician vessels. Might be a coincidence, of course. And they say that they traveled for 104 years through different parts of the … Jaredite ships Parent page: Book of Mormon/Book of Ether Book of Ether has parallels to Ugaritic flood text elements not found in the Bible What we wish to point out here is that there are various versions of the Flood story floating about, all of which … He could have figured this out, and answered his own question, or maybe he was just trying to be difficult. He noted that the ark or deluge boat was peaked at both ends forming a "crescent shape" like the Jaredite … Or maybe it was as brutal and long as it seems. (Nor really for many word choices in the Book of Mormon) My guess is that it was tied to the barges on the canals near where he lived. 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