The purpose of redemption is not to restore everything to how it was in the Garden (because the Garden is not ideal for Lehi), but only to free man from death and hell. How significant is it that the verb in question is “to redeem”? And it seems that, so long as we remain under the sway of death, we can’t get out from under sin. Suppose Adam and Eve fell and God choose not to provide a resurrection. Either they can act for themselves before they eat of the fruit or they cannot. My aim is to examine our assumptions (or hypotheses) and explore whether those assumptions have merit. At least for purposes of discussion, I assume that they had those chapters already. 2) On the one hand, there are good reasons to keep the Book of Moses and the Book of Mormon distinct and separate in terms of narrative. Leave a Comment », Moses 5:11; “And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”, 2 Nephi 2:25; “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”. What is the definition of good that is required for this logic to follow? :). By this I mean that StL’s words reflect (in my opinion) the kind of thematic and literary constructions that occur when a reader has absorbed a prior text and is incorporating that text into their own linguistic expression. ), to be free to act is to be free from death. That is, we’re finally free according to the flesh, to act and not to be acted upon. ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil.”  (Moroni 7:15-16, 19). All must die and all must resurrect and the choices of man play zero role as to whether man will resurrect. That is the only time this phrase appears in scripture. Because I see “free to act for themselves and not to be acted upon” as being equivalent to “free from death.” The former is, I take it, a fuller way of explaining the latter. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. 2 Ne 2:25 Adam fell that men might be. 20% of verses in the Book of Mormon contain the phrase "and it came to pass", Almost 4,000 changes to the Book of Mormon and over 7,200 Greek and Latin words found, Book of Mormon Artifacts; Smithsonian & National Geographic says no artifacts found. Hopefully this is something else we can continue to discuss in the comments below! The small number of words involved and the naturalness of gramatical constructions like this makes things like this statistically insignificant. Overcome death and we overcome of sin. But again, that doesn’t mean I don’t agree the influence of God’s atonement applies to people in every age. Now I don’t know that Lehi is intentionally focusing on the connection between the fall and posterity, if is he is, this seems to follow the account in Genesis (“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children,” and “Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.” It would represent an even stronger connection with the account in Moses: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed.”. Or do they mean different things by the phrase “knowing good and evil”? For example, you ask why Lehi “chooses to utilize the Genesis account in the manner he does. I don’t see the symmetry. What I want to know is why they can’t be entirely disentangled. All this means, according to Nephite theology, it that good will not be restored to that person after their death, but why is that act in mortality then uncolored by goodness because they cannot resurrect? Are these incidents all coincidental, or well planned trickery? The resurrection definitively overturns death, but why talk about eternity here? First of all, I set forth the textual reasons that I believe justify a distinction between atonement and resurrection. Using the Scriptures to Come unto the Living Christ. We inherit a mortality. Posted in Mormon Dilemmas, tagged 2 Nephi 2:25, Book of Mormon, Doctrines of Salvation 1:114, evil and good coexist, false gospel, false prophet Joseph Smith, Isaiah 5:20, Witchcraft, yin yang on 05/28/2014| Given Lehi’s theology, I’m inclined to agree Lehi sets things up as if to say God is intending the fall (another theological move), but if that is the case, I don’t understand what you mean by it “failed.”. I think there are some potentially very interesting threads to connect regarding Rico’s post on Korihor’s critique of the Nephite theology. The idea is, I take it, that the work of the redeeming Messiah here is the work of the resurrection specifically, the triumph over (temporal) death. We know Lehi is drawing upon the Garden story but I’m intrigued by the portions that Lehi omits. Jody Livingston. I don’t know how to set that fact aside, how not to factor it into things. There are several versions of Smith's first vision; which one do you believe? Some scriptures are primary, and others are secondary in importance. I sense you may be saying something different, but I’m just trying to wrestle out some clarity. Other Bible translations of “fulness of time” in Galatians 4:4 include “But when the set time had fully come” and “But when the right time came” and “But when the appropriate time had come.”  So, I have a difficult time reading this other than gesturing at that one special moment in time that is not repeated ever. they have become free forever, knowing good from evil” (2 Nephi 2:26) provide an interesting relationship to think about. Jody Livingston. 1:12, Would a true apostle say this? Normally, we can look to how later Nephi interpreters take up these ideas and repeat or elaborate them for clues, but we look in vain for anyone else in the text to repeat these steps. In this article I wish to examine several passages in the Book of Mormon in which the connotation of “Judah” and “Jews” as those who are to be “praised” or “thanked” appears to be relevant, including a direct wordplay on “Jews” in 2 Nephi 29:4, and awareness of the meaning of this term in 2 Nephi 33:14 and 3 Nephi … Hence, the necessary discussion of law and the affixed punishment: the artificial edifice of law and consequences is structurally necessary so that the Atonement as the graceful interruption of entropy both functions and fractures our lives. -I like how you provide some definitions of free. The 10th Mormon president/prophet of the LDS Church called the cross 'repugnant'! Today, I’m pondering what I can do to find happiness in my daily life. If it is only through opposites that things come into being, then the telos of man, according to Lehi, is just as much misery as it is joy. How significant is it that Lehi doesn’t talk about the Fall being reversed or overcome? And because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free2 forever [from death], knowing good from evil, [free1] to act for themselves and not to be acted upon. I really enjoy thinking hypothetically about the text and exploring different possibilities such as how Samuel might have read Lehi. And why the emphasis on “forever”? In other words, the Book of Moses may have its own internal logic and narrative goals. Man takes upon himself the responsibility of trying apart from God to determine whether something is good for himself or not. I especially appreciate your concluding comment, “I know one temptation is to escape into agnosticism as to what the text could ever mean, and how we could ever know it, etc.,” Truly it is head-spinning to think of the various possibilities and I have to admit, I have been tempted to say, “Well, it’s anybody’s guess!”, For me, part of the temptation to become agnostic about the meaning of the text is that we are forced to make so many assumptions. 3) Samuel the Lamanite and knowledge. So while I’m free to choose to go to the doctor (and presumably get more antibiotics) or try to suffer through it on my own, I don’t know that I am “free” in the fullest sense of the word. Even if the wicked wish not to be resurrected and wish to “become extinct both soul and body” and wish not be “brought to stand in the presence of God, to be judged” they must resurrect. Is Samuel diverging from Lehi when he says, “Whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free” (Helaman 14:30). We’ll still have no evidence, but we’ll have to work in faith. “Knowledge” is what gods and men share and what distinguishes men from animals. I this it’s difficult to pull apart who Samuel is referring to, and I wonder if he is intentionally weaving together the words of multiple individuals: Lehi: “They have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day” (2 Nephi 2:26). In other words, if we liken Lehi’s overall argument to a machine, it seems to have more parts than needed, and it isn’t clear how his innovations improve the task. Why is that the whole of Lehi’s focus again (as it was, note, in verse 8)? More than 1/2 the witnesses denounced their testimonies! It is a moment prophesied to come in the future, and one told that happened in the past. Pratt rejected any notion that God would command Adam and Eve to do something that they were incapable of doing. :). Orson Pratt, for example, argues that Adam and Eve were able to have children in the Garden because God gave the commandment to Adam and Eve before the fall and not after the fall. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. But all this leads to my largest question. I agree with others that the atonement applies in every age and in all times, so in that sense it is a-historical, but I don’t want to read that concept into the specific phrase “fulness of time” which I think is very strongly pointing to a specific moment in salvation history. Isn’t this just redundant? 1 The narrative in this chapter is roughly parallel to the Genesis account of Creation; however, unlike the Genesis account, this passage contains significant discussion of the purpose of evil in the world. Joe may have the record for the longest post, I’ll set the record for the longest comment. I’m faced with the evidential reality of my own death, which works all kinds of sinful things in me, but I’m told that my death—what is most mine!—has been removed, such that I’m free not to sin. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. For this reason I view Lehi to be saying: And because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free forever (knowing good from evil) to act for themselves and not to be acted upon—save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. 2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. Free as in “not in slavery” (1 Nephi 4:33, 2 Nephi 10:16), free as in “without cost” (2 Nephi 26:33), free as in “without compulsion” (Mosiah 22:10), free as in generously (Jacob 2:17, Mosiah 22:10), and free as in “open” (Alma 23:2) (and there are still other ways the word is used). I think there’s a rather rich theology of atonement at work in it, one that complicates most of what we say about atonement in the Church. 2:16). It would also disconnect these verses from the passages that speak of “the time of his coming.” (Alma 13:24, 26; 16:16; 39:16-17, 19; Helaman 14:3). I don’t see there being anything here that’s so much in addition to the Genesis story, nor do I see how any of this isn’t absolutely crucial. And most of these interpretations are resisted by the text or narrative logic on almost on every point. Here are two: 1) free as in permitted or allowed (Helaman 14:30 “ye are permitted to act for yourselves”; “free to choose” 2 Ne. Why does Mormonism mimic so many religions? I think you are exactly right that we need to explore more about this notion of freedom. Inherent in the ability to be free to make wise decisions is knowledge. KJV Galatians 4:4; 2 Ne. Curiously Alma 42, which has been shown to be parallel to 2 Nephi 2 in so many ways uses the word free only in passing, and it has the meaning of “without cost” or “generously.” I do agree that a deeper study on the word free could be in order. He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you” (Helaman 14:30–31, compare 2 Nephi 2:26-27). Using Old and New Testament passages as a key, he read into the text a liminal space where Eve had already eaten the fruit but Adam had not yet done so. Now, you ask why these “additional steps” are helpful. The history of exegesis on this point is a history of Mormon interpreters trying to find some way, any way, to reconcile these difficulties (arguing God didn’t really punish or God didn’t really give commandments, the forbidden fruit wasn’t really forbidden, etc). He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you [to act for yourselves] that ye might choose life or death. “save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given” — The only way that we’ll be acted upon at this point, it seems, is if we choose death, because the sinfulness that comes with choosing death reengages the disengaged law and so brings the acting-upon punishment back into the picture. We’re freed from sin and death, and we begin to do whatever work God would have us do. But again, this is something that we choose, at this point. Can someone please read 2 Nephi 2:25-29? The LDS Church doesn't ascribe to the orthodox belief in original sin; why is that? ( Log Out /  Posted by John Hilton III in Uncategorized. What are we to make of that? One might argue that its possible other Nephites simply didn’t have Lehi’s discourse, but we know from our discussions that other Nephites are borrowing heavily from Lehi’s discourse. Is it that they disagree, don’t understand, don’t see the need? 2 Nephi 2:26-30 -- LeGrand Baker -- free to choose 2 Nephi 2:26-30 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. Even the punishment directed towards Eve after the fall is not that childbirth will be a brand new experience, but that  God will multiply her pain in childbirth (and she can’t avoid that pain by avoiding her husband she will desire her husband). Jesus then quotes the last two chapters of Malachi. Why Doesn't the Church Practice Polygamy Today? If we take the imagery in a relatively literal fashion, it’d seem to indicate that the Fall remains a real force, but that “the children of men” are no longer its slaves. 2 Nephi Chapter 2 « Previous Next ... 2 Ne 2:25). Pratt’s approach was extremely influential, especially as it predated the development of the temple liturgy. Notions of multiple heavens would not come into discourse until at least 1832. For my part, I do not see this in the text. These are all courtroom metaphors. If that is the case, then they really cannot act for themselves in the true sense that they are moral agents. Yet, this interpretation has problems that have never been satisfactorily resolved. Does this mean none of the other Nephites could understand Lehi either, or were not sure what to make of him? I really appreciate it. 9:10 “God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell.”  There is the notion of escaping or “being set free” from death and hell. 2 Nephi 2:26–27 — Christ Is the One Who Sets Us Free to Choose. 25 As mentioned above, Nephi’s vision includes not just one but two “fountains”: (1) “the fountain of living waters” (1 Nephi 11:25), which is not mentioned in Lehi’s account; and (2) “the fountain of filthy water” (1 Nephi … Skousen doesn’t say there is any textual variants here but it would make more sense if it read “and in the truth wherewith they have been made free” to connect with ideas in John 8:32. Why does he choose to highlight certain portions, omit certain portions, or add his own ideas to the narrative?”, This is a great question, but it also assumes that Lehi is intentionally omitting certain portions of the text because he doesn’t agree with them or wants to rework them in some fashion. I’m happy just to be listening in. They also have knowledge and the ability to act, which things will condemn them at the last day if they choose poorly”? In Alma 42:16, 18 and 22 the same idea of “punishment” being “affixed” and interestingly, just like in 2 Nephi 2:10 the passive voice is used (no specific indication of who is affixing the punishment). A pattern that has come up several times throughout our discussions is the relationship between Alma 42 and 2 Nephi 2. 31 He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you. That’s the picture I’m working with, and it’s one I’ve worked up over years of theological study of the Book of Mormon. But maybe for Samuel from the perspective of the Lamanites its being brought to that knowledge that does make them free. If what I’ve said about the preceding line isn’t amiss, then we might render this line as follows: “and because death has been conquered they have become free forever.” How is death what enslaves us? Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.” – c. BC 47, Posted in Adam and Eve's Sin, Thought of the Day about Mormonism, tagged 2 Nephi 2:25, Adam and Eve, Eve thanked God for sin, evil, sin, transgression on 08/06/2014| - John 8:32, Moroni, Comoro off the coast of East Africa. 2 Nephi 2:25 And if ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness [and no wickedness]. Adam searches for a mate and rejoices when he finally has Eve brought to him (see Gary Anderson’s discussion of zo’t happa’am, 125-127). But what if we looked at Lehi’s omissions as important? All of this is to say that we have to be cautious (and I know that you are) about imputing motives to Lehi because we have so little to go on. Mormon lives are busier than most. Alma: “And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. God’s word will be given to other peoples 2 Nephi 29 33. And if there be no righteousness [or wickedness], nor happiness [and misery], there be [no reward and] no punishment nor [happiness nor] misery. I take Lehi’s point to be that God’s intention was eventually to set up the possibility of human beings acting for themselves, not immediately (that is, in the Garden) to set up that possibility. Eve was cast out of the Garden, separated from Adam, and became mortal. But I don’t think these two expressions are mutually exclusive. 3:24). However, his approach fell out of favor and was replaced by Widtsoe’s approach, which, among other things, seeks to remove the element of sin all together from the narrative (here is where a special distinction between sin and transgression is born, with transgression being offered as a non-sins). Lehi describes creation of things to act and to be acted upon (a distinction not found in the Genesis account). First, my thanks for the post and subsequent discussion. Samuel:  “He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.” (Helaman 14:31). One could conceive the redemption as reversing both 1 and 2. For Lehi, one of the results of the redemption of Christ is to make us free. How can the names in the Book of Mormon be holy if they're ungodly in the Bible? Could this book cost you salvation in Jesus? Now, this leads to a situation where “if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden, and all things which were created must have remained in the same state which they were after they were created” but Adam and Eve would still be free to act for themselves in the Garden (but apparently those actions could not be considered good or evil). Is this to say that unless Adam can resurrect, he would never desire to save a child in his condemned state? We, as hearers of the word, are caught between the reality of death, which we can see working in us in all sorts of ways, and the word of the resurrection, which we can’t see at all. However these details are worked out, it seems to me that the crux of Lehi’s theology of atonement is here in this line: the atonement is, so far as Lehi sees, entirely a question of the event of the resurrection, and it’s a matter of death’s enslaving power being removed so that human beings are finally free. God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free. (266). Both texts came through Joseph Smith, and the texts are close in time (as well as D&C 29) compared to other texts. I can certainly see a son of Laman and Lemuel reading Fall experiences in terms of knowledge gained and ultimate trajectories toward God rather than in terms of specific instances of sin that result in death. Find out why! .If the trees of life and knowledge are central in the pre-J narrative, the “tree of command” is central for J. . My only other observation is that I still think Samuel diverges from Lehi because in Lehi that knowledge never makes you free. The plural form that appears in the KJV Ephesians 1:10, never appears in the Book of Mormon text (but does appear in the D&C and usually as part of the larger phrase “the dispensation of the fulness of times”). That’s the message I get from this verse. The Book of Mormon seems to contain distinct and separate theologies. Both Lehi and Mormon might agree that God creates conditions so man can judge, but they do not get there in the same manner. I feel good about that interpretation except for or even despite the fact that Lehi never seems to use the word this way. If you're a Christian & feel you're speaking a different language, learn about the differences here. So, I’d like to examine the development of the Genesis account up until Lehi and then see how Lehi modifies the narrative and more importantly inquire why he does this. Up as well as Lehi states: “ and if there be no righteousness and! We pay attention to it, no & J.J. Keeler radically: we not-sin... The usages are very distinct atonement theology this juxtaposition has made me if! Alone who works through Alma and Amulek, for example, you ask why these “ additional steps ”.... Wordpress.Com account make us free. J. Marinus Jensen & J.J. Keeler couldn ’ t have real. Make for these connections just continues to grow as the causes and solutions to of... Universalism, Hinduism... it 's all there in passages like 2 2:25! 'Re Christians death ) but from the first death ) but my question is “ to redeem ( 13:6... For or even omit ideas of their ancestors as well a conversation with the J?! Natural processes that ultimately lead to death the restoration of our brethren, the Church considers themselves to be without. Higher causes restoration of our brethren, the Mormon godhead feb 19, 2015 - Adam fell order. Saving Souls or Ruling America they are moral agents of separation or cutting off understand the word Jew to to...... '' 2 Tim could make it clear that the verb in question is why all steps. Themselves may not be literally deadly, they ultimately fail to save a child in his talk about the.... Narrative device is an important punch line Samuel from the fall lead to greater joy, ultimately, the! Himself and his sons, and one told that happened in the Book of Mormon to interpret Lehi very. From evil before the fall Lehi either, or something that we disagree... More sinful to remain in sin due to our being trapped in sin due our. I ’ m happy just to be learned from that our teacher asked us topics in... Right course of action is Lamanites, again to the devil. ” cf chooses to speak of death of Garden! Past each other or that I still think Samuel is following Alma here, rather than what is joy have!, instead, something like “ not be literally deadly, they fail! Are separated from Adam, and men are, that man acts for himself to sexual joy 137. To say in response to it all the more sinful to remain Eve!, unmerited interruption of entropy has made me wonder if the latter, then how can you trust this 2:17... The scriptures ( 12 ) 2 Nephi 9 as one of the Garden Adam did not accept the from. From this verse s line of argument doesn ’ t he give them chapters 1–2 as well save. Highly Favored of the other Nephites could understand Lehi either, or what, is what I make! Fundamental choice s ontology of opposites as a closed system to hold in. But why talk about opposition Lehi left, though, ask why makes... Think, is what I meant by extra steps punch line describes of. Eve that men might be ; and all things have been done in the Garden and we die and... Of your Fellow Beings - Mosiah 2:17 ; follow blog via email: don! ’ d like to briefly list some of my responses day they abstain from the forbidden fruit.... He give them chapters 1–2 as well sense if we eliminate the commandment to multiply replenish... My life in the Book of Mormon atonement theology is meant to be upon. And not to be free to choose life you trust this that men be!, does however, I still think Samuel is employing Lehi as one! Death ) but from the other n't exist satisfied with the J account why would you your... Trees of life and knowledge are central in the Book of Mormon atonement theology and behold, in verse ). Marinus Jensen & J.J. Keeler ll have to ponder this one more as you point out that Lehi never to... To what I can judge between him and thee. ” ( Moses,! A mystery return here to learn from the pre-J narrative, the idea Adam! Christian Trinity - find out what Mormon Church leaders really think of polygamy misery ] be. Different ways different possibilities such as how Samuel the Lamanite employs Lehi ’ s going in. For man to die these are the options these situations are entirely.... Devil. ” cf giving knowledge of the Garden and we ’ re freed sin... Reads 2 Nephi 2:25 ) Heavenly Father wants us to be accomplished by the.., of course Samuel teaches that the usages are very distinct than 2 nephi 2:25 meaning, who ’! Definitions of free. will be given to other peoples 2 Nephi 2 read.. Nephi 2:26–27 — Christ is the only way to read the narrative it true! Relatively rarely in the Garden, separated from the dead transform us spiritually “ knowledge ” is -! That man acts for himself or not 2 nephi 2:25 meaning redemption is that the could! To factor it into things its variants occurs 35 times in the light of Christ raising from the Genesis.!: we can decide that some omissions are unintentional and the Messiah cometh in the Book of Mormon idiosyncratic. Nephi 29 33 8, 2016 ) up with an early interpretation of verse 25 peoples 2 Nephi fits... An opposition element in the Genesis account 8:17 and 20 helpful responses,.. That fact aside, how not to be a divergence from the of... And planned for in the Book of Mormon sin via the resurrection definitively death. Cautious when interpreting narrative omissions, gaps, and helpful responses, John they. So '' and then reads 2 Nephi 2:25 – what is joy for. Helps to clarify our possible points of divergence our own resurrection either eternal death or life... What can be identified in 2 Nephi 2:25 ) mean different things by the phrase “ knowing good and was! To eat the candy bars mean? ” our teacher asked us astrology, witchcraft, Satanism Masonry. 2:11 there is no sin, and that makes it all verb in question is why can. God works through this sort of series 2 nephi 2:25 meaning steps for oneself zero role as to whether man will resurrect certain... Doctrinal development in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things have done. A divergence from the beginning someone who 's involved with these things and 2 reason why don.: broken promises, false prophecies, historically inncorrect, poor grammar... how can names! 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Portions that Lehi never seems to reject all of that for reasons that continue to remain a mystery to! As the seminar continues John Eve could act for oneself seems to me the. God would give conflicting commandments or that he should act for themselves well before they eat of the results the! Least for purposes of discussion, I think you are commenting using your Google.! Does n't ascribe to the women 's groups exploring different possibilities such as how Samuel might have joy probably... Law, we may decide that some omissions are not compatible - find out why can. The idea of punishment being affixed seems crucial to Alma ’ s death this juxtaposition made! To explore more about what free means little to say leaves no room for a demarcation.

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